Cameron on redistribution
I haven't once listened to Radio 4's Today programme since 1990 - these days I'm already on a 243 bus to work when it starts.
Luckily DWP Secretary of State James Purnell does tune in, and is pointing any Labour folk he happens to run into towards this telling quote - evidence of an increasing harshness in the Tory line on social issues now they feel they have detoxified their brand - from an interview with David Cameron on Tuesday morning at about 07.59, where Mr Cameron clarifies the ideological difference between the two main parties on tackling poverty:
"The Labour Party for a long time said it, only it, could deal with deep poverty because it understood about transferring money from rich to poor, but I think we've reached the end of that road, ... we need quite conservative solutions to deal with those problems".
I think we can take it from the phrasing "I think we've reached the end of that road" that a Tory government won't be seeking to increase redistribution. They seem to have an interesting view that making the poor richer doesn't er... reduce poverty. Run that past me again will you Dave?
Anyway, the bottom line is that if you think there should be redistribution to make our unequal society more equal, David Cameron doesn't agree with you. I dread to imagine what his "quite conservative solutions" to poverty might be. Any guesses?
posted by Luke Akehurst at 8:56 pm
30 Comments:
Well you shouldn't have to redistribute wealth if you have a society that is socially mobile.
What Cameron is saying is that we have to build an economy based on hard work and responsible employment. Fair pay for a good days work with opportunities to better your lot. You can't get fairer than that.
What has happened under Labour is that the working classes have been funding the governments social programme instead of taxing those on 100k plus more. This is why you are seeing the unions revolting on pay and conditions. Those earning less than 20k per year are simply paying too much tax and seeing very little benefit from it. For many working people they simply are not better off working and that is simply not acceptable.
I personally would pay twice as much income tax if I felt it would make a difference. FREE university education for my kids, FREE dental treatment for all, Tax free travel on public transport etc etc.
There was so much this government could of done to make a difference. They could have given every working person tax free travel to work or simply increased the personal allowance a few thousand. Access to FREE education and training while in work. Labour have done the opposite to this. If your out of work everything is FREE, but for most working people being out of work is not acceptable and they therefore miss out.
Rather than help those that are trying Labour have punished them and given the proceeds to millions who can't be bothered. Yes tax credits help poor families but what about those that don't have kids, are they not entitled to some quality of life? And what also about the long term, how will families dependent on tax credits cope when they are removed?
I did have high hopes for Labour but I'm affraid it's lost and I can only hope the conservatives do something to bring fairness into social justice.
10:40 pm, July 17, 2008
Social Responsibility is code for 'look after yourself'.
His rhetoric chimes with a population that feels lost and under siege by rising prices and the constant talking down of the economy by the media. But the intent of the Tories has not changed at all since the 1980s.
As a Party we need to expose this Tory sham whilst showing bold leadership, vision and action to regain the public trust. James Purnell is one of the few really doing that with his reforms - as well as chipping away at Cameron.
10:47 pm, July 17, 2008
If we do not have redistribution then the poor wil get poorer. Pensioners will die in poverty, children will grow up in agonisng poverty. The tories in reality do not care. The new tory party is even more evil than the old tory party of the 80s.
Most tory party members do talk about evolution and of the poor just being allowed die off. I know that seems extreme but I have heard tories who talk like that.
10:58 pm, July 17, 2008
I've never expected the Tories to be able to deal with poverty, but all the same, I would like to hear exactly what they would do. I'd imagine it would be on the lines of Duncan Smith's think tank, and I'm still not entirely sure exactly what they are meant to be saying either.
It is a pity that Labour haven't been more effective themselves in this area, though. Taxation rates are simply not progressive enough, and too many people have remained in the poverty trap because taxation starts at far too low a threshold. I am also unconvinced about the tax credit approach. Means testing relies too much on people claiming for something ans inevitably leads to disincentives.
11:23 pm, July 17, 2008
Oh, and Rich - afraid that a capitalist society inevitably leads to failures and those who get left behind. Indeed, its one of the necessary by products. Not everyone can be a 'success' and a 'winner'. So, that pretty much rules out the trickle-down theory - social mobility does precisely nothing about relative poverty.
11:25 pm, July 17, 2008
Dirty European Socialist:
Isn't it funny that those who whine the loudest (You), and advocate the most ridiculous of theories on that of other peoples websites - can then refuse the very same principle, in allowing readers to comment upon your own inverted comment: "Blog".
You make me cringe with embarrassment, for those amongst this readership, that genuinely do seek a stable Society for us all to share.
Your above comments are those of an uneducated buffoon, steeped in Stalinist propaganda!
Cap fit????
Nobody can be either as blinkered, or as stupid as you! - It just isn't possible, in this day and age!!
12:35 am, July 18, 2008
Just how minor was your minor public school, Luke?
"Anyway, the bottom line is that if you think their (sic) should be redistribution to make our unequal society more equal, David Cameron doesn't agree with you."
I suspect it should read " ... if you think there should be ..."
You can do like me and get your Today programme fix via here. Then you can sit on the 243 with an MP3 player and listen to yesterday's programme (or get it at the office and listen on the way back home).
7:34 am, July 18, 2008
Ha theres a suprise so Luke went to Public school!!! I am amazed..(not )
According to the institute for fiscal studies since 1997 the people ranked in the top 10 % have seen their income grow by 17% in real terms under Labour . The bottom 5% have improved their lot by 13.5%. So the poor have been getting richer.
True the gap has grown a bit , perhaps then some question of morality arises. Nope , the activities of this class have assisted in the enrichment of the lowest 5 % but if Robin Hood should appear amongst us he would do no good anyway .There here are not enough rich people to go round . The IFS ,about three weeks ago ,calculated that the government would maximise revenues from those earning over £100,000 by imposing a marginal rate of 55.6% . This is perilously close to the current marginal rate of 53%including Income tax NI and indirect tax. It concluded that there was “No powerful case for increasing income tax on the very highest earners even on redistribution grounds
In fact the system is already redistributive . The government's own survey of personal incomes , the top 1% of earners pay 11.6% of pre tax income and 22% of tax.. The bottom 25% recive 8.2% of the national pre tax income and pay 2% of income tax.
This means that if there is to be any further redistribution of income it would have to come not from Madonna and Ashcroft but from the entire top half .That means ordinary families whose bread winner is temporarily hitting the heights at the time ‘he’ is supporting a family .
Additionally as we have seen the effects of existing hand outs has been toxic , look what ten years of socialism has done for Glasgow East.
So Luke since the rich cannot be taxed more if you are going to be redistributing money from people whop work from it perhaps you would justify that to them and explain why you feel a Policy that has achieved so little should be simply tried again
.
Cameron means tax redistribution but the allocation of funds through projects assist in solving workless ness though a Wisconsin style policy will actually cost more than the current “Throw money at it “ approach . That is what Cameron means and as he has just admitted we may actually have to have tax rises under the Conservatives I`m not sure what else you want.
Not one of your more thoughtful posts was it ...well really , was it ?
12:31 pm, July 18, 2008
Reversepsychology You are an idiot. I know you want hide what the tories are. The fact is most tories are neo nazis who want to kill the poor and they think Hitler is a great guy. They do want to exterminate the poor. We all know that If you wan prooth here it is.
Here is conversation I had with you tube user mbb05jb whi is aprodu mad tory on you tube.
Here is what he told me.
"what is wrong about about not wanting to carry dead weight? i certainly don't give a fuck to some lazy bastard who can't get a job. and if you are dumb enough to work as a binman, certainly don't have any kids that you can't support on your own! why should i pay for other peoples kids? normally evolution would have thinned these waste of spaces out."
The comment is on this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl8cM6YDMnU
We all know what you tories are really like. A bunch of offensive arrgoant nazi snobs that is why henley voted the BNP above decent parties.
2:18 pm, July 18, 2008
The commment is made on the comments section of the video. But it is a real example of how most nazi tory snobs feel. They want to exterminate the poor end of. The guy also told me that slavery was good as it started the industrual revolution. You tories are mad and we should goad you lot into revealing what you really think.
Another tory on one blog told me that he liked slavery because he found the idea of big black men in chains sexy.
It is very easy to goad tories into saying what they really think if you try hard.
2:21 pm, July 18, 2008
Dirty Euro - The only people who have ever advocated the extermination of the poor are the Fabian society whose eugenic theories had a large effect in Australia in the real world.( Look it up)
The Conservative Nation were responsible for defeating the fascists whole the left continued strike action in Spitfire Factories and apologised for Stalin until the 80s. It was lucky was it not that there was one strong nation left to defend the world when all the little Euro statelets had collapsed.
As you feel that there is an unending responsibility for other people’s children and choices ,can I please request that you turn up at my place wash the dishes and leave a cheque. I am sick of paying for mine and would rather sit on my arse all day.
Hope that’s ok
Toodles
2:37 pm, July 18, 2008
Dirty Euro:
Nazi and Tory in the same sentence - and in your own deluded opinion, having exactly the same meaning too!!
Why am I not surprised that it would be YOU that scraped the bottom of the barrel first, for rank ineptitude in the first degree!!
I can happily read this blog, Miller 2.0, Dave Cole ect, ect, and where I may not always agree with their views, I will openly concede to each of them, that they can make some thought provoking, and interesting points, that force me to assess things in a way that I wouldn’t necessarily have done previously.
This is called human progress.
You on the other hand, are the living epitome of the words: “One sided Imbecile”
2:42 pm, July 18, 2008
The fabian society never called for the poor to be exterminated. And I have listed tory party supporter today who called for the poor to be exterminated. By the way The government was also run by Clement Attlee so it was not a tory government that won WW2, it was national coalition.
What was it that Keith Joseph said
He is widely regarded as the "power behind the throne" in the creation of what came to be known as "Thatcherism".
"The balance of our population, our human stock is threatened. A recent article in Poverty, published by the Child Poverty Action Group, showed that a high and rising proportion of children are being born to mothers least fitted to bring children into the world and to bring them up."
2:46 pm, July 18, 2008
My above point was for newmainia. By the way Reversepsychology I can say what I want. I will not be bullied from pointing out the true core of tory views. You make no reply to my points that a large modern core of the tory party is made up of snobby people who would like to exterminate the poor. You know that is the case.
What do you think of Keith Joseph or of the guy I found on you tube who called for Bin men to stop breeding.
2:49 pm, July 18, 2008
Reversepsychology is a total idiot. He seems to be allowed to call people stalinist but no on is allowed to call him a nazi. Well you're a nazi if I am a stalinist.
2:52 pm, July 18, 2008
Purnell is more bang on in his analysis of the tories than any other politician.
3:24 pm, July 18, 2008
Blimey, just reading down the comments. It reads like ADHD.
Can we avoid breaking Godwin's Law, please?
3:29 pm, July 18, 2008
I will break godwins law if I want. The law was just created for right wingers to shut people up from talking about Hitler why is there no law about people mentioning stalin.
Why are you joining in and insulting me all it took was reversepsycho to give you a compliment and you join his side.
Thanks for posting your embarassing passport photo for everyone to see. LOL
If talking about NAZIs is banned then holocaust deniars will enjoy themselves as they do not even need to bother denying the holocaust if fake liberals do it for them with some mornic law.
I will mention Hitler whenever I want. How far does this moronic law go. So someone can mention Stalin but no one can mention Hitler. Funny how the the right wing dictator is banned from all internet arguments. Hmm wonder who that could benefit eh the right wing ofcourse. Oh sorry it's bad manners to mention hitler but not stalin ?
4:00 pm, July 18, 2008
Well it was more the mentally handicapped they mostly wanted to get rid of Dirty but its not exactly warm and fluffy is it , as I say look it up , cure your ignorance . In fact according to a Poll quoted in “What’s Left “ and also in” The Likes Of Us” , 35% of Labour voters say their second choice Party is the BNP. There is no cross over between Conservatives and the BNP , I should imagine you could hear all sorts of simply dreadful language if you chose to listen to some of these. Tsk tsk
Kieth Joseph is using dated forms common to social thinkers early in the century, but he has a point the core of which is still with us. Labour hand outs and housing policy have encouraged a father free work free feckless and atomised underclass to grow whereas those who are responsible are unable to reproduce . The rate overall of indigenous reproduction overall was down to 1.3 at one time and without floods of immigration and benefits driven child bearing we would be suffering an implosion . Actually it is up again now to 1.75 , mystifyingly , although still not beginning to replace the parent generation. The 20,000 homes from which 90% of low level crime emanate are overwhelmingly from the one group who get richer with each needy child as well as sprinting up the housing list. You think it does not happen ?
Conservatives are advocating more resources as well as clearly saying you are responsible for your own life . That seems fair, what are we supposed to be doing , keeping pets ?
My point about the war was not that it woz the Conservative Party wot won it it was that it was Conservative nationalism that held the line . Loyalty to country , a country you consider a worthless impediment to our inclusion into the New Reich which is about as democratic as the first one. Or are you advocating a sort of National Socialism now ...I forget ?
And it is quite ok to refer to Stalin who the left defended and spied for well into the 6os and seventies often causing the death of British servicemen. Conservatives never supported the Fascists .The PLO did though ...your chums , but then there has always been a rich seam of anti-Semitism on the left. Eight Jews at one time in Thatchers cabinet , Ken Livingstone would have hated it.
(Incidentally the fastest rising incidence of racial violence is Muslim on Jew )
4:36 pm, July 18, 2008
I agree to a point mike but since Labour have been in power they have done very little to help families or individuals that work. The vast majority of people earn a lot less than 20k each but it is this group that is feeling the most strain.
I see no reason why the really wealthy can't pay a little extra just to ease the pressure of those at the bottom. As I said in my post every person that works deserves fair pay and the current minimum wage is not in line with the cost of living. You can't expect people to work and do all the dirty low paid jobs but not be able to live. We need to to measure the cost of living more accurately and set wages based on this.
Too many people don't work because they can't afford to take a job. The answer is not to make it harder for people to claim benefits but easier for people tor return to work. Which is why I think everyone should be able to claim back tax spent on going to work.....travel, clothes, lunch etc.
I think Labour are liars and I think the conservatives have a lot more to offer with respect to reducing poverty.
5:23 pm, July 18, 2008
Ken Livingstone does not hate jews you sickoe. The tories were the one who supported the NAZIs.
There have been no prominent labour MPs to compare to Keith Jospeh, Enoch Powell, Alan Clark (who said we should not have fought WW2) in recent years.
The fact you have to resort to makeing anti semitic smears about Ken shows how low you go. Boris made racist comments but you igonore that.
By the way the socialist wing of the nazis was wiped out in the night of the long knives that is GCSE level history, no wonder you do not know about that, you have not reached that level yet. Plus the EUropean integration was supported by Churchill, Eisenhower and the founder of the EU Robert Schuman was nearly execued by the NAZIs in concerntration camps. Plus Hitler expresly spoke out against european integration as he fealt an independent germany would be bullwark to what he madly saw as a jewish world government, hmm suppose euro skeptics could sympathise with that evil nationalistic insanity.
It was not tory nationalism that won WW2. It was internationalism Tory nationalism would have supported Hitler in the national interest preverving the empire which you no doubt support.
By the way you are the one who wants people to vote SNP and kill Britain stone dead.
How about your right wing buddies in the saudi royalty who would like to wipe out Israel and supported Bin Laden's evil plots to wipe out western society. It is your monarchist buddies who want to destroy this western society.
Plus I did not say you could not mention Stalin I said if we can mention him we can mention the right wing's heroes Hitler, Mussolini and Franco. I have no problem with you mentioing stalin (who did save this country from the nazis) just that it seems to be a double standard one terrible dictator can be menionted but not the the right wing one.
5:53 pm, July 18, 2008
Rich ; I don;'t actually agree with you there - tax credits have been ailed at people who work. But I think they are inherently problematic - however, that is different from saying that the government did nothing - they certainly did
far more than their Tory predecessors if we also take the minimum wage into account.
I am completely unconvinced by Tory proposals since they also fail to deal with the basic problem and would be even more means-test orientated.
6:19 pm, July 18, 2008
Boris made racist comments but you ignore that.
Only if you choose to understand them as a non English speaker and believe tax payer funded smear campaign organised by Compass. He is not a racist . Ken Livingstone on the other hand allowed it to be known he was anti Jew so as to suck up to the Islamic vote in common with other left London operators of racial division. This is of a piece with his consistently held views about Israel , frankly I doubt he uis anti semitic , but he certainly used anti Semitism disgracefully.
I am ambivalent about Enoch Powell although you do not understand what he was saying .He was thrown out of the Conservative Party where he fell into the warm embrace of his immediate and enthusiastic supporters the Dockers Union .
Meanwhile the Crewe by election included poisonous and insultingly witless anti Pole propaganda on behalf of the Labour Party , Margaret Hodge has complained about the darkies climbing up the housing list , Hazel Blears has muttered about the neighbourhood changing over night and Brown`s British Jobs for the British meant what exactly ?( Nothing in reality but it is not the Conservatives losing votes to the BNP). We know what they are up to. Must make you so proud
By the way the socialist wing of the nazis was wiped out in the night of the long knives that is GCSE level history, no wonder you do not know about that, you have not reached that level yet.
Ahhh that’s so sweet , he has an O level , well done , they let you show what you “can” do did they ?Of course when I was at school the word education was yet to be replaced with the phrase “Done Nazi Germany”. This is why I am , by your standards a venerable seer of impossible wisdom. The Nazis ran an incompetent ultra politicised corporatists state weighed down with bureaucrats and obviously authoritarian. Remind you of anyone Brown shirt perhaps ?
The Labour Party also kicked out the Socialists at Blackpool when half of the membership packed it in. Let us say then that Hitler was a National “New “ Socialism.
Plus the EUropean integration was supported by Churchill,
I quote
"We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not comprised. We are associated but not absorbed. And should European statesmen address us and say, 'Shall we speak for thee?', we should reply, 'Nay Sir, for we dwell among our own people'."
A sentiment I could agree with and on the day the ratification has been snuck through the Lords and we no longer speak for ourselves it is a reminder of the moderate balanced Conservatives view .European integration as in the abolition of the nation was not , you anachronistic tit , envisaged by Churchill. Well honestly its just so stupid what can you say. Don’t try that fatuous and old line again please.
It was not tory nationalism that won WW2. It was internationalism Tory nationalism would have supported Hitler in the national interest preverving the empire which you no doubt support.
I am something of a loss to imagine what internationalism might have meant when there was no-one else left to be international with. There was no real option to ally with Hitler Churchill knew this , he understood what he was dealing with. Your choice does not arise .We have become far more tolerant of cowards and traitors since
By the way you are the one who wants people to vote SNP and kill Britain stone dead.
The Labour Party killed Britain when the concocted devolution so as to count labour votes twice. In an act of cynical gerrymandering they set in process end of the Union and much as I regret it there is nothing left now to stop it. On the house of Saud I cannot be bothered with semi digested unconnected just so stories . Save it for your knitting circle.
Stalin saved himself period . .Conservatism is by temperament and doctrine against fascism in every conceivable way. As I have mentioned the authoritarian left are alarmingly similar. 45 days internment , ID cards , data bases , ignoring manifesto promises , claiming a state of emergency politicising the security services , covering naked power hunger with a fake nationalism.
Looking forward to our New' 'Britain Day. Jesus ...
better get your salute right
8:34 pm, July 18, 2008
newmania said:
"Conservatives are ... clearly saying you are responsible for your own life . That seems fair, what are we supposed to be doing , keeping pets?"
I paid NI and tax for many decades and when I got sick and disabled and no longer able to work I expected there would be a system of state benefits to help me so I was not left a pauper, begging on the streets for charitable handouts (or left choosing between heating my home or eating a meal).
If I wanted to live in a country where there was no tax or NI to pay and the poor, needy, disabled and orphaned were left to beg on the streets - I would have moved to India ... or the USA.
I know someone who is 65 years old and is a multi-millionaire. He uses his new heating allowance to keep his swimming pool heated at a higher temperature than before. I have no heated office to stay in during the long winter days and nights so I will choose whether to keep myself warm ... or eat.
Conditions for disabled people who are unable to work have deteriorated over the past ten years or so.
And the bad news?
If the Tories get in, these conditions will probably worsen.
" ... what are we supposed to be doing, keeping pets?"
Personally, I would deny a pet neither food nor warmth. Sadly, this present Government would and, I suspect, so would the Tories.
3:32 pm, July 19, 2008
Sadly, this present Government would and, I suspect, so would the Tories.
That is not true and I agree that those in genuine difficulty especially the old have been disgracefully treated whilst the work shy and criminal are endlessly forgiven and funded
8:51 pm, July 19, 2008
newmania said:
"Conservatives are ... clearly saying you are responsible for your own life . That seems fair, what are we supposed to be doing , keeping pets?"
I said:
"Personally, I would deny a pet neither food nor warmth. Sadly, this present Government would and, I suspect, so would the Tories."
newmania said:
"That is not true"
OK Newmania. You have already said "you are responsible for your own life" and, based on what you have written before, I guess it is safe to presume that you would agree with Ms Thatcher that there is "no such thing as society". So what is "not true".
The Tories already indicated that they want to hand over big sections of social welfare to the charity sector (which would include those god damn awful so-called "faith" communities) so lesbians and gays and those looking for birth control or abortions (and, who knows, maybe even those born out of wedlock) could run the risk of not getting the welfare benefits to which they are entitled.
-----------
BTW are there any Labour Party supporters out there willing to support the Government's record on the treatment of disabled people who are unable to work over the past ten years?
1:39 am, July 20, 2008
You may well be correct mike but if the conservatives fail in the same way Labour have then I won't be voting for them either.
The UK has some major problems that need resolving. I'm getting increasingly fed up with the lack of choice and having to make do with who runs your country is simply not good enough.
Business in the UK is so sterile and I'm getting bored with the British town centre. Every city has the same shops / services and the small businessman has been forced out. I'm not blaming Labour for this as this trend started with Thatcher but Labour have literally just made it worse.
We are so dependent on these companies now that they run the show. It's very hard under the current climate for young people to start their own businesses. I.T and internet is probably the only viable option. How can you get people out of poverty if the jobs on offer only pay £5.60 per hour?
I run a small co-operative, we don't actually make a profit as it gets shared out at christmas time and our workers vote on how to invest surplus. I get paid well but you would expect that as it was my dads money that set it up and I have the biggest share. We employ a range of engineers none of which earn less than £15.00 per hour. Even the cleaner gets £9.00 per hour and I earn just under £32.00 per hour.
Too much Greed at the top and in the end it is the workers that end up losing their jobs. And the rich will blame the cost of Labour and red tape but in reality it is the fat cats that are causing the damage.What we need is a political party that is willing to stand up against the giants and start helping our youngsters become enterprising. We should be getting rich from ideas and not from treading on the little man.
How many hospitals use contract cleaners who pay their works min wage, how many schools do the same. How many councils use contractors for waste and recycling and these again have workers on temp contracts with no union support or rights. Fat cats are running riot and making millions from treating our poorest like dirt.
6:32 pm, July 20, 2008
The only way I could see that working is to abandon the fetish for free trade and move towards a more protectionist ideal.
As it happens, I agree with that, but think it needs to be on a European level - I'm quite happy to support a Fortress Europe policy and learn from good practice there - where many of the things you cite haver not happened. Go to France and you will see what I mean.
8:11 pm, July 20, 2008
I used to go out with a Tory and he rated the lottery as one of the great achievements of the last Tory Government.
This is a conservative method of dealing with poverty; the poor pay out money every week in the hope of the unlikely event that they will win something.
The additional benefits are that the winnings may go to the rich instead, the rich are let off the hook from giving to charity as the lottery funds the good causes and also that the rich are not saddled with high taxes as the lottery pays for things such as the millennium dome (funded by the lottery, sponsorship and ticket sales, not taxes as erroneously reported by the media).
Perhaps this will help to clear up what is was that David Cameron meant.
1:40 pm, July 21, 2008
Newmania I know you think britain is not part of europe because you are ignorant pratt. But listen earth to newmaina Britian is part of europe. I am from britain which makes me european now what planet are you from, Uranus. The fact you think Boris did not make racist comments shows what an utter scum bag you are.
By the way Chrchill cleary stated he supported european integration you utter prick. It was only after commonewelath nations selfishly told him to not he was forced to change his tune. Here is line of his that you ignore
In 1942 he said "but Europe is our prime care."
Only months after the war ended he advocated a "United States of Europe" to unify the continent "in a manner unknown since the fall of the Roman Empire."
Now you can take little quotes out. The fact is the churchill who fought and won the war supported european integration.
11:05 am, July 25, 2008
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